The Mel Robbins Podcast

00:00 Hey, it's your friend Mel and welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast. 00:08 Oh, you're going to love the episode today because today you and I are going to learn how to deal with the people in your life who won't change. I mean, we love these people, but they're so frustrating, right? I know you're sick of it. I'm sick of it. Aren't you sick of wasting your time and energy trying to push other people to be better? Of course you are. 00:30 Today you're gonna learn a different approach. 00:33 You're gonna learn how to use the research to pull the people you love toward the changes that you wanna see, and they're not even gonna know you're doing it. 00:42 Dr. Dolly Chug is here in our Boston studios. She is a social psychologist with three degrees from Harvard. She's also an award-winning professor at NYU Stern School of Business. Her entire field of expertise is studying why people won't change, and more importantly, how to effectively move someone else toward changing. So if you're in a frustrating pattern with someone that you love, you are listening to the exact episode that you need to hear. 01:14 You're going to love this because there's so many takeaways that you and I can apply immediately. In fact, Dr. Chug is going to say, there's only three things that you can do that will inspire someone else to change. Just three. And if you're like me, you're going to realize you're probably not doing any of these three things. You're doing the things that don't work. 01:32 After listening today... 01:34 you will finally break free from the endless, frustrating cycle of fighting, nagging, and lecturing the people you care about. And you know what you're gonna feel? Peace and power. And if you apply what Dr. Chug is about to teach you today, you may just see the people that you care about finally change. 02:02 You want to know something I've really struggled with? Getting enough protein. My doctor recommends I get at least 100 grams. Do you know how much protein that is? I mean, there's only so many chicken breasts and eggs that a woman can eat for crying out loud. So when I discovered this tiny little protein shot that had 23 grams of protein, I thought this is the best protein I've ever had. And that's exactly why I joined the company and became a co-founder. Pure Genius Protein has no artificial sweeteners or flavors. It's gluten-free, sugar-free, and fat-free. 02:33 It is only 100 calories, 23 grams of delicious protein. I drink one every single morning. Use code MEL10 at puregeniusprotein.com for 10% off your first order, 23 grams of protein in three seconds for under $3 a shot. 02:53 Hey, it's your Today, you and I are talking all about how you deal with people in your life who will not change. You're gonna learn how to stop wasting your energy, and more importantly, you're gonna know exactly what to do to inspire the changes you wanna see in other people. 03:27 You're gonna love this. Dr. Dolly Chug is an award-winning social psychologist, behavioral scientist, a professor at NYU Stern School of Business, where her classes are so popular, they're nearly impossible to get into. Dr. Chug is also a best-selling author who's earned three degrees from Harvard, an MBA, a master's in psychology, and her PhD in social psychology and organizational behavior. Today, she is here in our Boston studios to unpack the science that's going to help you break free from the frustrating cycle of trying to push other people that you love to change. 04:03 Because there's a better way. So how about you and I learn it? Please help me welcome Dr. Dolly Chug to the Mel Robbins podcast. I'm so thrilled to be here, Mel. Thank you for having me. I'm thrilled that you're here too. And I know that this topic is going to resonate with the person who's listening right now, and it's going to be incredibly helpful. 04:27 Could you start, Dr. Chug, by telling the person who's here with us what could change about their life and their relationships if they take everything to heart that you're about to teach us about dealing with the people in your life that are not changing? 04:42 You're going to feel lighter. 04:45 You're going to feel more hopeful. 04:47 You're going to see a path because you're going to have tools that will help you both when you're trying to make changes in yourself and when you're trying to make changes in other people. 04:59 You're gonna realize you're not alone in those moments, those messy human moments. 05:06 And you're gonna drop some of the frustration that you have and the expectations that you have of other people. I love that. I wanna feel more free. I wanna feel lighter. 05:16 That sounds fantastic because the people in my life drive me crazy. And the other thing is, is I know that I drive the people in my life crazy. You know, there's that famous quote When you know better, you do better. Maya Angelou said that. And I think that's true when you look backwards at the lessons that you've learned the hard way. 05:36 But when I think about myself, I will admit that I often know better. 05:42 But I don't do better. 05:45 And your research really sits at the heart of knowing better, but we don't do better. 05:54 Why is it, Dr. Chug, that we can know better? We know we should not be drinking tonight. We know we should go to the gym this morning. We know that we shouldn't spend money on that thing that we don't need because we're supposed to be saving for somebody. We know we shouldn't snap at our kids, but we don't do it. 06:13 There's two key insights that really helped me from the science of human behavior here. 06:20 And I like to think of these insights as understanding our mind as having bodyguards. 06:26 Okay, hold on. Our mind has bodyguards? 06:28 Our mind has these two big bodyguards that are keeping out change and keeping out growth. And here's what those two bodyguards are all about. I call one of them energy and one of them ego. 06:42 The energy bodyguard is trying to... 06:46 preserve my energy. They're trying to make my life as easy as possible. 06:52 And that means that a lot of what we do is on autopilot. Let me give you an example. I'm going to snap my fingers. 07:00 And in that snap of a fingers, you just had 11 million thoughts. Wait, what? Right. 11 million? Yes. There's a study that says that that there is so much of our mind on autopilot. Like, for example, let's say you had a long day and now you're heading home, you're driving or you're taking a subway or a bus or you're riding the bike or you're walking and you get home, you walk in the door and you realize you don't remember anything about that commute home. 07:31 You don't remember red lights or green lights or did you get a seat on the bus? 07:36 You just did it because you've done it a million times. Well, you know what I think is I literally say to myself, oh my God, what just happened? What just happened? Where was I? 07:43 Right. But the good news is, is that's your body and your brain doing everything it should conserving energy. That's the bodyguard putting you on autopilot, letting you do the things you know how to do without having to think too hard about it. Okay, got it. So I call those little T thoughts, not capital T thoughts, right? And even right now, the fact that you and I can understand each other, that we sort of know which direction to face, that we can detect the temperature in the room and the feeling of our clothes on us, but we're not necessarily big T thinking about it. 08:15 So in that snap of the fingers, 11 million... 08:19 little t thoughts they say maybe like 40 big t thoughts actual thoughts like you're thinking what should i say next you know is this microphone the correct distance all those are big t thoughts and these are all happening simultaneously and i'm not even really aware we're not even aware of it because that's the brilliance of being a human being is that we are able to do that and that's because we have this mental bodyguard that's protecting our energy And some people refer to it as our unconscious mind is doing a lot of the work. 08:50 So when we talk about, if we go back to the question of why when I know something, don't I do it? Yes. 08:57 Sometimes knowing is talking about those capital T thoughts, right? The 40, not the 11 million. But there's still a whole lot going on in our unconscious mind, in our habits, in our reflexes that are going to keep us in a space that isn't closing that gap between knowing and doing. So that's one thing. Energy. Energy. Yes. There's a second bodyguard. Uh-oh. And this one's even bigger. Right. 09:24 This bodyguard is trying to protect, call it our ego, call it our self, call it our identity. It's whatever it is that makes us feel like the person we mean to be. There's a study that looked at how much we value having affirmation, having sort of validation of these identities we care about, whatever they are. 09:49 more than your favorite food, more than time with a friend, more than your favorite sex act. 09:56 We really, really like to protect our identity and our ego, whatever that means. So can you give me an example? Let's say that I consider myself like an identity I care about as being considered kind and warm. That's how I define being a good person. And And I am walking around my neighborhood one day. It's beautiful out. And I think, you know what, let me take this work call. It's, you know, audio only. Let me just put the little air pod in. I'm working from home today and do this call while I'm walking. 10:29 It's an important work call. I'm listening intently. 10:33 I unknowingly blow off a neighbor. 10:38 I'm in my work hall. My little AirPods tucked in my ear. They probably don't see it. They wave. And I hear later that they reported that I blew them off to someone else. They tell other neighbors that there she is being a bit standoffish. 10:55 That bothers me a lot. 10:59 Now, there are other people whose identity isn't as tied up in being seen as kind and warm and friendly and that kind of neighbor that says hello to everybody. They may not care. But for me, that really bothers me. So... We've got these two bodyguards that are going to always want to push away anything that suggests changing what we're doing or growing into being someone else if it threatens our energy or our ego in the moment. 11:28 So you just explained to me why the people that I love who I'm worried about don't take better care of themselves. Okay. So for example, it takes a lot of energy to lift weights, to eat healthy, to go for a walk, especially when you haven't. 11:45 Right. 11:46 And if your ego and something that you value is, I'm in control of me. Right. Nobody tells me what to do. 11:53 My desire for you to now lift weights because your doctor said so or to start walking because I think it's important for you to prevent dementia or for you to eat healthy because I'm worried about the weight you're putting on. I'm now threatening one of your core values, which is I'm my own person. Don't tell me what to do. 12:12 Wow. 12:13 You just nailed it. And that's called agency. It's a fundamental human need that I'm my own person. Don't tell me what to do. 12:20 Now, can you do that to yourself? Because I often feel like I'm such a, whether you call it control freak or rebel, that I even rebel against my own attempts to make myself... Yeah. You know what I'm saying? I'm the world's worst employee because I hate being told what to do unless I understand why I need to do it. And even when I try to tell myself what to do, I notice I negotiate with myself and push back. 12:52 And I think you just explained why. 12:53 I think that's right. I think that's right. 12:55 It's the bodyguard of the ego. Nobody tells Mel Robbins what to do, not even Mel Robbins. Right. 13:01 Can you show me, Dr. Chug, this gap between knowing better but not doing better? 13:10 All right, Mel, I'm going to ask for your help with this. 13:12 I'm going to pull out a little prop. You ready? Okay, got it. Okay. All right. So... 13:17 What I'm gonna show you here is this poster board has words written in different color fonts. You might notice that there's red, there's orange, there's green, pink, blue, and we've got about 15 words. And what I want you to do is I'm gonna point to a word and you just tell me what color it's in. Okay. All right, Mel, you got it, go. Red, orange, I'm just doing color, right? 13:43 Green, pink, blue. 13:46 Green, blue, red, yellow, green. Crushing it. Blue, yellow, pink, green, orange. Oh, you did so well now. Now here's what I want to point out to the person listening. The word is the same as the color. So she's pointing to the first word. The word is red, but it's also red. When you pointed to the second, the word is orange and the color of the word is also orange. Okay, now what's happening? 14:09 I think you're catching on here, Mel, because I now like you. I'm flipping the chart. 14:14 Now, let me just tell the person listening. Every word is a color. 14:20 But the actual color that the word is written in is different from the word. So she's about to point to the word green, but it's actually printed in the color orange. 14:30 Exactly. And I want to point out before you do it, Mel, that right now what you just did was you were able to narrate to me exactly what we're doing. So that's the knowing. We talked about the different people know and do. So you know what we're doing. Yes. Let's see if you can do it. 14:49 Okay. 14:52 This is like a brain scramble. 14:54 Oh, that's all right. 14:55 Wait, am I reading the word or telling you the color? 14:57 You're telling me the color. 14:58 You're asking my mom to do two different things. I know. You can do it. Try harder. Wait, I'm telling you the color? Telling me the color. 15:03 Of the word. The color of the font. Is orange the right answer? Yes. Oh, God. Even though the word is green. Okay. 15:11 Red. Good. Pink. Yes. Yellow. Oh, blue. Orange. 15:20 Blue. Red. Yes. 15:24 green, orange, pink, green, blue, yellow, red. Okay. My brain all of a sudden went like, it got it. Right. The last call. Right. I was not faking that by the way. 15:39 So Mel, what you just did is called the Stroop test. Stroop. Like strep and poop as one thing. Yeah. 15:46 That's a good way to remember it. And why did you show us that? And what does it have to do with change? 15:52 What you were trying to do is take two things that happened really quickly for you. One of them is detecting color. Yes. And one of them is reading. So those two effortless activities were no longer effortless because they conflicted with each other. They contradicted each other. So what I asked you to do in that moment was unlearn reading. 16:13 Whoa. And what you experience... 16:18 When being asked to do something that you have to unlearn. 16:22 And I bet as you were watching on YouTube, you felt the same thing as I felt this internal friction and resistance. And that's always there. 16:33 Whenever I have to do something that I've either never done before or I don't want to, whether it's getting off the couch or putting the phone down or trying something I've never tried before, I feel that same. 16:48 That's right, because that's what unlearning feels like. That's what change feels like. That's what growth feels like. Unlearning is a two-step process because first I've got to let go of the thing I already know how to do. 16:59 And then I've got to learn the new thing. And so when we're asking other people to change, I'm not saying we shouldn't ask for that and that we shouldn't hold people accountable, especially if their actions are hurting us. 17:13 Absolutely. 17:14 But the empathy that we can have for what we're asking of them is going to go a long way in that moment. 17:21 Because we know how hard it is for us to change, but we just assume other people can do it like that. Totally. And that if they don't do it like that, they're a jerk. 17:30 We want grace for our own mistakes and learning curve, and we want accountability for everyone else's. 17:39 My God, I'm so guilty of that. 17:41 okay, I'm going to put this visual away. Super cool. 17:45 Thank you for bringing that. 17:46 Absolutely. 17:46 So what is the biggest mistake that you make when you know what you should be doing, but you're still not doing it? 17:57 That we forget that you can't learn from a mistake you're still defending. 18:03 Oh, wait, what do you mean by that? That we get in a space of, Of trying to prove ourselves rather than trying to improve ourselves. 18:14 Hold on. Did you hear that? 18:16 She said we get into a space where we try to prove ourselves instead of trying to improve ourselves. Right. 18:25 Oh, my gosh. 18:28 I do that. 18:30 I can think of a million examples where I got very defensive. Me too. Proving why this is too hard or why I couldn't follow through tonight or why. Me too. 18:40 We get into a space of proving ourselves instead of trying to improve ourselves. Right. 18:46 And by the way, Mel, the people we're trying to prove ourselves to are sometimes other people and defending, but sometimes it's ourselves. It's why didn't I get that right? Why didn't I know how to do that? Why am I so bad at this? Why can't I be as good as so-and-so at it? Why isn't my life like other persons? 19:07 Yeah. 19:08 How do you get out of that trap? 19:10 One thing I like to say is that when I say I study the psychology of good people, it's a little bit of a gotcha because my work focuses on helping people let go of being good people, whatever that means to them, going to the gym, being nice to neighbors, whatever it is. 19:33 That you need to let go of it in order to become better people. What does that mean? Because aren't we supposed to be good people? Of course we are. And the problem is, as soon as we decide we're a good person, we're trying to prove it instead of trying to improve towards it. 19:51 this game never ends. Life goes on day after day, throwing new challenges, new curve balls at us. Even if you thought you did it today, you crushed it today. Tomorrow's a new day. 20:02 And so getting in a space where we realize this is an ongoing process for ourself and for other people, we're not trying to prove we've already figured it out. We're trying to improve on an ongoing basis. We're not trying to see ourself as good people, especially when Things that are kind of got some moral charge to it, like are you nice to your children? Are you a good parent? Like those things have a lot of moral charge to them. And we feel like we should just know how to do it. And you should just know how to do it. 20:35 That's not good enough. These are skills, and skills require practice and improvement. So good people things, we tend to view as, like, it's a belief you should have. It's a value you should have. How can you not know how to do that? Why do you keep interrupting me? If you cared, you wouldn't interrupt me. That's like a you should just know how to do it, prove it to me, as opposed to you're trying to get better at it, and it's a skill that you're working on. 21:03 Well, I can see certainly how I hold this over other people's heads. Yeah. That if you're not doing the things that I wish you would do, you're not a good person. 21:15 But if I turn it on myself first, because we're going to get to other people, and I think, okay, and I invite you as you're listening to really think about what have you held over your own head in judgment where you believe that if you got to every email today, you're a good person. If your laundry is done, you're a good person. If your house is clean, you're a good person. If you can both be at work and volunteer at the school and take care of your parents, you're a good person. 21:52 And you're saying that even trying to, quote, be a good person by some standard you've set is a recipe for feeling miserable about yourself. And you want us to switch our mindset to, no, no, no, I'm— improving all the time. I'm learning all the time. I'm doing the best I can all the time. Is that kind of more of the switch? That's exactly it. 22:16 So the distinction I make is between being a good person and a goodish person. 22:20 Okay. 22:21 Being a good person is a static. You either are or you're not. Oh. A goodish person is someone who's always trying to get better. So Good person is trying to prove they're a good person. Goodish person is constantly trying to improve. And so the irony of it is even though goodish sounds like, okay, well, you're not as good as good. Goodish is actually better than good because you're constantly getting better. 22:46 And you're giving space for the days where you blow it. And you take ownership for it. 22:51 So there's a difference between giving space. Like, let's say I say something that hurts someone. Let's say I use a term that I don't realize has some offensive meaning or history to it. And I get called out on it. Yep. The idea here is not to let myself off the hook. Well, you know, they're too sensitive. Yeah, I'm good-ish. You know, they're a little too sensitive. I'm sorry, you know, you were so offended. The idea is for me to say, okay, there's something I didn't know. I'm going to own that I did some harm there that I didn't intend to. 23:23 It's not that I'm a bad person. It's that I didn't know. And now I'm going to learn, take ownership for that and do better the next time. So the ownership piece is really important. It's that I'm a goodish person who keeps trying to get better. And in doing that, I'm going to improve myself, not just prove myself. 23:44 This is such a helpful framework because it really reveals to me anyway, and probably to you as you're listening right now, how hard you are in yourself. Oh, my gosh. And what impossible standards you hold yourself to. 24:01 Right. Right. 24:02 And I would love to have you, Dr. Chu, just speak directly to the person who feels weary when you say constantly improving because there's a nuance to what you're saying. You're not saying you got to be constantly pushing yourself, constantly improving, constantly going to the gym, constantly trying to do better, constantly grinding it out because you're not doing enough. 24:28 It's a different... 24:31 Yeah. And I'd love to have you put that in context because I'd be willing to bet that the person that's listening and is making time to be with us right now is probably exhausted. Totally. They're trying very hard. They end the day feeling like they didn't do enough. 24:50 And as you're starting to have this realization like I am that, wow, I'm probably the hardest person in the world on myself. Right. Because I'm trying to be a good person. But I've defined this in a way that's impossible to reach. So I always have at least 10 things at the end of the day that make me feel like a bad person because I didn't get to them. So how do you want us to really think about what that means? Going from proving that you're good and then annihilating yourself at the end of the day. I'm bad. I didn't do this. 25:21 Exactly. 25:22 versus this change in your mindset that you're just constantly trying to improve. 25:29 Exactly. Well, I think you just nailed it in what you said. So what's exhausting, and we're all so exhausted for a lot of reasons right now, but what's particularly exhausting is feeling like a failure. 25:46 It leads to what psychologists call learned helplessness, If you keep trying, keep trying, keep trying, don't feel like you get anywhere, eventually you just learn that you're helpless and you give up. 25:59 What we're talking about here is, yes, something that takes a little bit of effort, but it's less exhausting. Because what you're, at the end of the day, evaluating is, have I grown, not have I succeeded? Right. 26:15 And that's a very different question. 26:18 It's what have I learned today, not what did I get right or wrong today? There's a million things I'm sure I've done wrong as a parent, but one of the things that I'm happy that my husband and I implemented early on with our kids is when they would bring home any sort of grade or test or paper from school, we would try really hard not to react to the grade. All we would say is, do you understand what you did? Do you understand what you got wrong? 26:49 Did you try your best? 26:51 And I think those are actually great questions for us all to ask ourselves at the end of a day. 26:57 Not did I get it right or wrong? It's what did I learn and did I try my best? 27:03 What did I learn and did I try my best? 27:07 That's a beautiful thing. So two questions to ask yourself at the end of every day. What did I learn and did I try my best? 27:15 Yeah. 27:15 You know, I am really... 27:18 learning a lot. And I find myself constantly reflecting about my own behavior as I'm listening to everything that you're teaching us. And I bet you are too, as you're listening. 27:30 And here's what I want to do. I'm having so many ahas. I've got so many more questions, but I want to take a quick pause for a moment so we can hear a word from our amazing sponsors, but don't you dare go anywhere. Because when we come back, Dr. Chug is going to talk about the difference between pushing somebody to change and pulling them. She'll explain the three ways that you get somebody to change because there's only three. And a little later, you're going to learn all about something amazing you're going to use with your family called the one to 10 rule. 28:01 Don't go anywhere. We'll be right back. 28:14 Welcome back. It's your friend, Mel Robbins, and I'm here with Dr. Chug, an award-winning social psychologist and professor at NYU Stern School of Business. Today, she is teaching you and me how to deal with people in your life who will not change, how to stop wasting your time and energy, and what to do step by step instead. So, Dr. Chug, here's my next question. One of the things that we hear from our audience in 194 countries is one of the things that people struggle with the most is this sense of I'm not good enough. 28:47 Right. 28:53 And that we hold moral standards over ourselves. And we judge ourselves every day. Let's just be honest. As you're listening right now, think about how many times you've sent a text and then you say, I'm an idiot. I shouldn't have written that. Think about how many times you walk... out of a party and then you judge yourself for what you're wearing. 29:12 Right. 29:12 Think about how you leave work at the end of the day and you tell yourself you didn't do enough and yet you didn't even give yourself credit for the hundred emails and Slack messages and Zoom meetings that you attended. Right. And we're constantly holding this judgment over ourselves. So no wonder we don't feel good enough. Here's what it's also making me realize. 29:34 If I'm this judgy of myself. Yeah. I'm now realizing how judgy and opinionated I am of other people. Sure, yeah. And if I have a standard for what Mel Robbins needs to do every day to be a good person, can you imagine what the list looks like for what my husband Christopher Robbins needs to do to be a good husband? Right, right. If the list is impossibly long that I hold over my own head— Right, right. 30:05 Imagine how long that list is for my husband. I mean. And my kids. 30:11 And the people I work with. 30:12 Right. And the stranger in front of me. So, I mean, the question is, how do we help others change? I love how you said help. Yeah. Because I'm trying to force. Manipulate, control, bribe, whatever it takes. So one of the things we talk about, I mean... 30:29 I'm all for bribery. 30:32 My most effective parenting technique to date in a couple of decades has been that I sing to my kids. 30:42 How is that effective? 30:44 Because I'm a terrible singer, and they really don't like it. So if I'm saying, do this, do that, nobody's listening, I'm not getting anyone's attention, and then I start singing, you are my sunshine. I could do it for your audience, but you'd lose listeners. Let's hear it. You are my sunshine. Now I want to pick up my stuff and clean my room. I'm like, anything, Mom, but stuff. And I'll keep going until they do the thing. 31:06 Oh my God, I love this. 31:07 Isn't that good? 31:08 Why does that work? 31:09 It's a little bit of a pull versus a push, right? So a push is saying, go clean your room. A pull is creating the conditions in which you want to go clean your room. Because they want to leave you. Yeah. 31:22 And this is a big... That feels more like a repel, honestly. It might be. Yeah, that's fair. It's fair. But the push versus pull distinction is a really important one with the leadership classes I teach. That when we're trying to influence others, sometimes we do need to push. And that means we're directing them. We are telling them. We are forcing them. That's a push technique. And we see it in the workplace. We see it in our families. It has its place. 31:52 We tend to overuse it, though. And so pull techniques are more about creating conditions under which people want to do it on their own. As you said earlier, where I am the boss of me, where I might be asking questions or I might be being a sounding board for someone else to let them know. create their own plan, their own desire and purpose around the thing that I want them to do. That almost always takes longer. 32:25 Always. Than push. However, if it works, it lasts longer as well. 32:32 Realistically, what can you do to help someone you love change? Realistically, 32:39 You can model change, you can invite change, you can reward change, but you cannot make anyone change. 32:56 Let me give an example of what I mean by model change because I think it's an important one. 33:01 There's a story that may or may not be true, but it's sort of taken on epic fable proportions. 33:08 Mahatma Gandhi, who was one of the leaders of the nonviolence movement in India in the 1940s, he became seen as the person that people would go to for wisdom. And in this fable that's told about him, he would receive people who would travel by foot hundreds of miles to come to him and ask for his wisdom. 33:35 And one day this family came to him with their young child and said, Gandhiji, we have traveled a long way. We've waited a long time for our turn. And we need you to tell our son, who's withering away, he must eat food and not just sugar. All he will eat is sugar. 33:55 Gandhi listened to them. He heard their request. He nodded with understanding. And then he said, please come back in two weeks. 34:05 Not the response they were looking for. They had traveled a long way. They had waited a long time. Their son is withering away. Wait two weeks. Why? 34:14 But out of deference, they go back home. Two weeks later, they make the long journey. They wait the long time for their turn. They arrive at his doorstep. They say, now, please, Gandhiji, will you help us with our son? He's withering away. He's only eating sugar. And Gandhiji said to them, my son, you must stop eating sugar. 34:37 Well, that seems like a bit of a buzzkill after all of that. And they say to him, thank you, thank you, but with all due respect, why couldn't you say that two weeks ago? And he said, because two weeks ago, I was still eating sugar. So the first step when we realistically want to help someone change is to think about what we can do ourselves to model change. Now, that doesn't mean I'm not trying to add to our exhausted plate. 35:09 I'm just trying to say in all the work we're doing ourselves, can we make it visible to others that we know this is hard and And this is what we are struggling with. So if your partner's snapping at the kids, you keep telling them, stop snapping at the kids, and they keep snapping, they get defensive. What if you talked about the struggles you have sometimes with snapping at the kids? What if you mentioned that you noticed when you have a snack in the car before you come in to the house, it helps you take a moment? 35:44 What if you talked about the... things that you've tried that haven't worked and how embarrassed you are by the fact that they haven't worked. 35:54 That's a super helpful story and example. 35:58 The second thing that you said that we could do is invite change. What does that look like? What's an example of inviting change? 36:04 Inviting means creating the conditions under which someone can do it and not feel self-conscious about it, right? So let's say your partner says, Doesn't say, but let's say they are going to go ahead and like, all right, so I'm not supposed to snap at the kids. I'm supposed to, but even though I'm tired, maybe what I'll do is try to tell a story about my day or I'll try to be funny and like try to say something relatable, whatever. 36:30 And when they do that, they come off a little awkward. The story goes on too long. They don't quite get it. The kids are tuning out. 36:41 If I in that moment say, what are you doing? This isn't helping. 36:48 That's not inviting change because they just did something. They changed something. It didn't work. 36:54 But they tried. So inviting change is allowing the unlearning to work through. 37:00 Oh, so it's recognizing tiny attempts. Yes. 37:06 And having grace. Yes. And just kind of really understanding, oh, this is the unlearning process. Exactly. Stumbling through it. 37:17 This is what it looks like. This is what it feels like. They're not going to all of a sudden know how not to snap at the kids. 37:22 And what does reward look like? You said we could reward change. What does that look like? 37:26 Depending on the situation, whether you do it publicly or privately, it's in whatever the love language is in your scenario, telling them you noticed it, you saw it, you appreciate it. If you think it worked, sincerely tell them, I think that really worked. I saw our daughter light up when you gave her that moment of attention. Thank you for hearing me. I know that was hard. You must be tired. 37:52 You know, how do you know when your advice is a complete waste of time? For example, you have a friend that keeps dating people that disrespect her. 38:04 They're complaining about it or they're complaining about their partner of eight years, but they never act on your advice. Right. Stop giving advice. 38:14 Stop giving advice. How do you know when it's time to stop giving advice? Yeah. 38:20 So I like the wait rule. What's the wait rule? Why am I talking? 38:25 Oh, wait, why am I talking? Right. So I didn't come up with this. I don't think we know exactly who came up with it. It was popularized by Michael Bungay-Stanier in his book, The Coaching Habit. The weight rule reminds us that when we're talking... especially if we're talking about someone else's problem, we're almost always talking at them. 38:50 Which means that agency, that sense of, I am my own boss, we're taking it away. So... 38:59 The first question is, have they even asked for our advice? Most of us want to help the people we love solve their problems. That doesn't necessarily mean they asked us for help to solve their problems. 39:12 And another great little rule of thumb I've heard is to ask people when we feel tempted to solve their problems. 39:21 This one probably won't work in the workplace, but I think it works really well in families. Do you want to be heard, hugged, or helped? 39:31 And then my addition to that rule is or high-fived. 39:36 Heard means they need to vent. In your example, the partner needs to vent. 39:41 Hugged means they need to feel loved. 39:46 Helped, they need my advice, and they want it. They're asking for it. 39:51 And the high-fived piece that I've added is sometimes... 39:55 A lot of us want people to notice how hard we're trying, how exhausted we are, how well we're doing. And especially as women, we're not really given permission to just say that's what we need. So we kind of keep dropping the breadcrumbs, hoping someone will high five us. So heard, hugged, helped her high five. So friend is complaining. They're never taking my advice. My first question is, did they ever ask for it? the advice, the second, let's say they are asking for the advice and they're not taking it, to name that, say, I know you've asked for my advice, I'm really flattered by that and I'm always happy to offer it, but I gotta ask you a question. 40:36 When you ask for my advice, do you mean you wanna be helped or do you wanna be heard? 40:43 Do you want to be hugged? Are you in pain? Do you want to be high-fived for the fact that you're a great partner and you're not getting the attention you want at home? Can you tell me a little bit more about what you mean by advice? 40:56 This is so helpful. And I love those four categories because I think when I'm in distress or I'm emotionally flooded, I often don't know what I need. 41:06 And so when somebody asks those four things, I might even surprise myself. 41:11 One mistake I've absolutely made is when somebody comes to me and they're feeling down, I make the mistake of trying to immediately lift them back up. 41:22 Ah, me too. 41:23 And oftentimes when people come to you in a moment when they're down, they just want a hug. They want a hug. They don't want the pep talk. They don't want to be told to be strong. They don't want you to fix this. They want to be reassured and comforted. 41:36 Yeah. 41:37 And so I also like the heard hug helped and high five because it stops me from stepping over a line. I like that a lot. Yeah, absolutely. 41:46 The funny thing is when I've asked this question, I mean, I haven't actually counted, but I think 90% of the time the answer I receive is heard. 41:55 Dr. Chug, thank you for explaining that way. You know, I am really learning a lot. And here's what I want to say to you. 42:04 If there's someone in your life that you keep thinking about, because I keep thinking about the people in my life that I'm trying to change, or if you have somebody in your life who's really hard on themselves and could really benefit from what we're learning today, just copy a link to this episode and share it with them while you're listening to our amazing sponsors. Stay with me. 42:34 Welcome back. It's your friend, Mel Robbins, and today you and I are learning from Dr. Dolly Chug, who's an award-winning social psychologist and professor at NYU Stern School of Business. She is teaching you and me how to deal with people in our lives who will not change. So, Dr. Chug, let's talk about difficult people. Okay. So let's talk about somebody who is always crossing the line. 42:58 Yeah. Yeah. 42:59 I have someone in my life that just has this love of the jab. 43:07 I don't know if it's conversational style, but... 43:11 I bet as you're reflecting upon difficult people in your life that there are just some people that when they are there, you're on edge. Yeah. You're just waiting for it. You're waiting for the political mark. You're waiting for the dismiss. You're waiting for them to say the passive aggressive thing. 43:30 How do you handle somebody that is insulting? Yeah. or difficult. 43:36 I think a lot of people can relate to what you're describing. And sometimes it's at the level of you're dreading the family gathering because that uncle is gonna jab and often jab down, punch down. And by the way, they want you to take the bait. Now, listen, we do need to be careful because that person may be doing real harm to people in the room and to people out in the world. But what we can do in that moment with that person is rather than giving them more oxygen by going back and forth, we can take some of the oxygen out. 44:09 How do you take the oxygen out? So he says the thing, you can say, ouch, or whoa, or... 44:18 gosh, you don't look old enough to be that old fashioned. Now realize what I'm not doing is inviting an argument. 44:26 What I am doing is telling everyone else in the room, that's not okay what we just heard. 44:32 The only thing that I've ever said is something that I once heard Jefferson Fisher say, and it works like a charm, which is, did you actually mean to say that out loud? Yes, I like that too. 44:41 Because you are, because what are they going to be like? Yes, I'm going to sound like a dickhead. And like, you know, like, and no, there's kind of a weird silence thing that happens. And then you get up and clear the table. 44:54 Yeah. But often I just find it's not worth a response. It's another example of, You're not giving them oxygen, but you're also not endorsing it. 45:06 Let's talk about dealing with somebody who gets really defensive. Okay. 45:11 The kind of person that is so hard to talk to because the second you try to give feedback, whether it's at work or it's to one of your adult siblings— They immediately get defensive. What do you do in that situation? So this happens all the time. 45:31 I get defensive when I get feedback. I've noticed other people get defensive when I give them feedback. 45:37 Sometimes the problem isn't the defensiveness. It's the feedback. 45:42 Oh, but I want them to be the problem. I don't want my feedback to be the problem. Trust me, they are the problem. 45:49 But let's figure out how we can show them that they're the problem. 45:53 So feedback is a word that's often equated with adjectives. So what do I mean by adjectives? 46:01 I might say to someone, your work isn't polished enough or it's not thorough enough. Polished and thorough are adjectives. Mm-hmm. 46:13 There's a lot of ways to understand what polished means. They might think that means there's no typos. They might think that means there's like good animation in their slides. They might think that means the way they talk to the customer. They might think that means that they're wearing certain clothes to work. And polished could mean a lot of things. 46:34 And so when we give feedback that's in adjectives, It's really easy for other people to become defensive because it's easy for them to argue with it. 46:47 Oh, so how do you give feedback that somebody can't argue with? 46:50 The feedback that's hard to argue with and that's actually easier to act on. So if you're looking for a change, you'll actually get the change you want as it focuses on the behavior. So I might say, I've noticed that on the slides, there are inconsistencies in the way we refer to the client's business. On one slide, it said they were in the hospitality business. And in the other slide, it said food and beverage. 47:21 To me, that looks like we haven't gone through and done a thorough proofread. It's not polished enough. 47:29 So do you see how once I laid out the actual behaviors, it's indisputable. I just, you know, it says hospitality here. It says food and beverage there. 47:39 It's a specific behavior. And now I can say, that's what I mean by it's not polished enough. 47:47 You know what I felt as you were saying that? What's that? I started to feel defensive. 47:51 Oh, really? 47:52 Because... Say more. 47:55 Because I was realizing I am guilty of speaking in adjectives, especially with my family. 48:02 Yeah. 48:03 Because I get emotionally flooded. 48:06 Yeah. 48:06 When I see particularly just things that are a mess. Yeah. 48:12 And oftentimes when we're giving feedback... We're already in a state where we're annoyed. Right. 48:19 And that's how I can see that things could become very vague. I'm going to give you an example. Let's do it. So I think I did a pretty good job on this. Okay. So we have a bunk room at our house in Vermont. And one of the things that I love more than anything is that our son, Oakley, who's 21, is home from college and And he and his best friends from high school have a window washing and odd job business. It's year four. Shout out, Sparker Boys. And they are employing, like, 15 kids. 48:49 Like, they're cranking it out. And they hang out at our house a lot, and I freaking love it. Okay. 48:56 And— I am very clear with them. I'm not your maid. I'm not your mother. You're always welcome here and the fridge is stocked and the door is open and the arms are open for a hug. But if you turn me into your maid or your mom, you are not going to be welcome here. I work so hard that I do not appreciate coming home from a long day of work and seeing this place looking like a frat house. Right. 49:22 Right. 49:23 And so the other day, and they've normally been really, really good. Yeah. But the other day I came home from being gone for eight days and I walked into the bunk room and it looked like they had been hazing people in there. Like I was just like, and we all know how, bunk bed seems like the most amazing thing in the world until you have to make a bunk bed. Oh, right. So normally the old Mel Volcano would pick up the phone and call Oakley and be like, rah, rah, rah, rah, rah, rah. 49:54 And I took a deep breath and I put them all on text and I said, hey guys, just got home and wanted to share something with you. I took a photo of the beds and the towels on the floor and the wet bathing suits on the couch. 50:12 And I said, does this look like leaving this in the way you found it? Mm-hmm. Is this representative of what you're capable of in terms of taking care of this house in the way that I've asked you to do? 50:36 No, no, no. 50:39 We can do better. And I said, great, because after being gone for eight days and working as hard as I do, walking in here and seeing that you've left this for me doesn't feel good. 50:50 Right. 50:51 Mel, that's amazing. 50:53 I don't know how I had the restraint. Yeah. I can even show you all the photos. Like, because once you see it, you're like, oh, my God, we left the house like that. Oh, she was coming home today. Like, if it was like that for seven days, I don't care. But not on the day. Not on day eight. You're not that dumb. 51:08 Right? So what you did was another important dimension of feedback is to state your expectation. Right. Good feedback at the workplace or at home includes a few elements. One, people have to know what good looks like, what the expectation is. So either they have to know in advance or if they didn't know in advance or you didn't know in advance how to convey it, once you saw what it wasn't, you were able to convey it. Then they have to know what you saw, heard, the actual behavior. 51:39 That was the photo for you. The photo was the behavior. So you stated the expectation, you gave what you observed in the behavior, and then you described the impact it had. 51:51 And from what I heard in your example, there was no adjective and you didn't need one. The adjective is the least useful part. 51:59 Yes. 52:00 Let me give you another example. Let's say you are having trouble getting your family to help, whether it's help with the laundry or when you walk in the front door, don't just disrobe and drop it all right at the entry. There are cubbies. If you have a mudroom for a reason, can the shoes go in the cubbies? Yeah. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, can you get the laundry moving so that it doesn't sit after you do the wash and then rot in there and stink? 52:34 Like, can we get some help? How do you get your family to help? 52:40 I use this when I'm teaching conflict resolution and negotiation classes to my MBA students, and I use this one in my own family and my marriage. 52:49 It's the one to 10 rule. The question to ask myself and ask someone else, particularly when we disagree on something or I'm asking something of them, like in your example, asking them to do certain things around the home, is on a scale of one to 10, how important is this? 10 is the most important. 53:13 Sometimes what I'm asking for when I'm asking them to hang the things up, the hanging up is not the 10. 53:20 It's the me feeling heard is the 10. 53:25 Me not being expected to do it for them is the 10. 53:30 Sometimes maybe the hanging up is a 10. Maybe there are people coming over and no way am I going to be judged because you know I am going to be the one who's judged when someone comes to our home. 53:41 by this is how I maintain a home. So maybe it is a 10 in that moment, but it's not always a 10. And I think sometimes the people around us hear everything as a 10 from us. 53:54 And if everything's important, nothing is. Exactly. Exactly. So you stop and ask yourself 1 to 10. Yeah. And what number am I acting on? Exactly. 54:04 No, I mean it. Yeah. And if you and the person in your family are having a discussion about this thing on the ground right now, On a 1 to 10 scale, how important is it to them that it be dropped on the floor? 54:18 Well, see, I assume it's a 1, and that's why I'm offended, and it's a 10, because it's important to me, but it's not important to them. And if it were important to them, they would pick it up. Do you see what I'm saying? 54:27 And this gets back to the— No, but how important is it to them to not listen to you? 54:31 Oh. 54:34 Probably a 10 because their value might be I'm my own person and you don't tell me what to do. 54:40 I've been at college for two years, so I'm now an adult. This is my space. And when I come home from college and I don't feel like this is my space anymore, I don't feel like these are my rules anymore. 54:51 Needs something to be mine. Oh, you're really good. 54:54 And also, if I've been working all day in the hot sun, washing disgusting windows in other people's houses and I've had to pull it together and manage people, I'm freaking exhausted and I don't care about your damn house because I'm coming in and I want to relax for a minute. 55:08 Right. 55:10 Oh, wow. I'm arguing about the thing on the floor, but we're completely missing each other. Maybe. Because the 10 that's important for me is, hey, I need help around here. 55:24 And the 10 that's important for the person you're trying to change are completely different topics. 55:28 I mean, what we do with my husband and I is if both of us are between one and seven, then whoever's the higher number wins. And like, why are we even talking about this? Life is busy. Let's move on. 55:39 And if either of us is an eight, nine or 10, there's something to be understood here and discussed. It's worth our time. 55:46 It's worth my, you know, effort. I love that. How do you know when you're supporting somebody versus enabling them? 55:55 Oh, gosh. Yeah. 55:58 Oh, Mel, this feels like a dream sequence because I feel like this is a central growth area of my life. Adult children. Is that what you're about to talk about? Yes, and the universe is trolling me, and I've learned so much from your work on this very issue. 56:14 So let me step a little bit outside of my expertise as a social psychologist and more into just my lived experience of seeing how the science of growth works. Okay. 56:25 My definition of hell on earth is watching someone I love suffer and not being able to do anything about it. 56:34 Being helpless. 56:36 I honestly don't think there's any greater pain in this world. 56:42 I know that a lot of people have been in this position where in an instant... 56:47 We would take their pain. We would take their suffering. We would take their distress. 56:53 But all we can do is bear witness to it. 56:56 And that's what feels like hell. 57:00 Sometimes what we think is supporting other people is us trying to deal with that feeling of hell. 57:10 We're just trying to lower the pain of it by doing something. 57:18 And while it might make us feel slightly less helpless, it's probably making things worse. 57:26 Why does it make it worse if you're providing the financial support or you're giving a place to live or you're doing the things that we want to do because we're trying, I think you're right, to feel like we're doing everything we can to support this person, but actually that soft cushion of support is is keeping the person from hitting the edge of their experience. 57:58 And truly having to reckon with the consequences of the decisions that they're making and the patterns that they haven't been unwilling to unlearn yet or haven't been able to. 58:13 Yeah. I think the way you described it is exactly my sense of it as well. 58:19 I'm also centering my own needs in that moment. I don't mean to. I love this person so much. That's why this is happening. But by me doing the things that make me feel better, it's a little harder for me to see what they need. 58:31 Have you figured out – because I know this is deeply personal for all of us. And nobody can actually tell you. 58:40 when is the appropriate time to keep doing and offering support and paying for things and stepping in because that's the thing that makes you feel like you're doing what you can do and that's the thing that is the only part of this that you can control? Right. And when is it that you say, I recognize that this person does not want to change, they are not ready to change, And I am a participant at this point in propping up the dynamic. 59:12 And the only thing I can do now is remove myself from the dynamic so this person has both the dignity of their own experience and they also have to feel the consequences of the way they're moving through life. 59:29 It's so personal. And I don't know if there's any kind of sliding scale ruler, like self-reflection to be able to really wrestle with yourself. 59:40 I think though, just recognizing that we know it's hard for us to grow. And then we've talked about having empathy for how hard it is for others to grow. Sometimes it's hard for us to let others grow. 59:57 I love that. 59:59 You in two practices, Dr. Chug, In your classes, you call it shout outs and own it. Yeah. So what is shout outs and own it and how can I and the person listening apply this? Absolutely. 60:13 Yeah. So one of the classes I teach is about how to be a good boss. And one of the things in that sort of leadership type of class that we talk a lot about is noticing what people are doing well and And expressing it to them. Now, this is leadership. I'm talking about how to be a good boss in the workplace, but it applies broadly. We are leaders in our families. We're leaders in our communities. We're leaders in our religious organizations. And so what we're doing at the end of this class is asking for volunteers to shout out a classmate. 60:49 Again, it's often things that they shout out. I really appreciated when Mel asked that question because I was thinking it too, but I was really afraid to ask it. 61:02 And the person who asked the question may not have thought twice about asking it, or they may have felt a lot of anxiety about asking it, and now that they hear that someone else was also sitting with that question, they feel less anxiety that was that question a dumb question. 61:15 You know what I'm going to do? I'm going to take a photo of those bunk beds when those boys make it, and I'm going to put it in the group tacks and shout it out. 61:21 Great job, guys. I love it. I love it. And then to own it is taking ownership for a way in which, you know, you didn't kind of get it right that day. And by get it right, I mean... 61:32 Someone might say, listen, I want to own it. I had my phone out a lot during class today. I just had trouble being engaged and I'm really sorry. And I know it kind of affects everyone else when someone takes their phone out. Or I was late today. My small group had to get going without me and then spend time catching me up. I didn't manage my time right. I'm sorry. 61:52 I love the own it. I love the own it. 61:53 And I have to say, like, in class, one thing I was thinking about this coming semester is we get a lot more shout outs than Onits, which makes sense. I mean, there's a lot more good than not going on. But I think I need to do more Onits myself to sort of motivate more Onits for my students as well, which is another thing we know about being a good boss is we want to be... 62:16 Bringing out the best in others, but doing it in a way that shows we're taking accountability from when we're not at our best. 62:23 Well, one of the things that you've taught us is that when it comes to trying to change other people, you can model, you can invite and reward. And shout-outs are really – I'm really good at shout-outs. I notice all the things going well. Oh, nice. 62:39 To a fault. Okay. 62:41 And if you over compliment people. Right. Then you create an inability to hear criticism or to hear feedback. Right. 62:55 Yeah. Yeah. 63:15 change and accountability. I like that a lot. I do too. I like that a lot. That's one of the, that's a big thing. I'm taking a lot of things from this conversation, but I am going to pull that and own it. I love it. In my life as a parent, as a friend. And I think we may do shout outs and own it's here in our meetings because I feel like the muscle of owning it when things aren't going well is something we can work on. Nice. So thank you for that. 63:44 For the person who's listening, you have poured so much into us. I mean, when I think about what you've taught us about the difference between knowing better and doing better, this subtle but serious moment of needing to unlearn behavior before you can change it. Right. Oh, my gosh. The two questions to end every day. 64:08 the tool after tool after tool that you gave us from pushing to pulling to the one to 10 rule. There was just so much here. If the person listening takes just one action, what is the most important thing to do after you have listened to this episode, other than sharing it with everybody you want to change? I love it. 64:32 We're going to let Dr. Chu change him. 64:35 I would say I bet everyone in your audience considers themselves a lifelong learner. What would it mean to be a lifelong learner and a lifelong unlearner? 64:47 Oh. Like simply by listening. Yeah. Today. Yeah. And investing the time in yourself. 64:54 You learned so much. 64:56 And having that I'm a lifelong learner. I need to unlearn some things to continue to grow and to not prove anything. 65:06 But as you said, to be improving the way that I feel about myself and the way that I approach life and the way that I connect with other people. Right. Amazing. Dr. Chug, what are your parting words? 65:17 I would say that hope and energy lies in growth. To just lean into that. There's all this pressure on us. We're so exhausted. We're being pulled in every direction. 65:29 And sometimes that makes us feel like, oh, there's no more to do. I cannot do anymore. And I promise you that when we allow ourselves into this space, this space of growth, of improving rather than proving, we will feel more hope and more energy. 65:47 You promised at the beginning, Dr. Chug, that we would feel lighter. 65:50 Mm-hmm. 65:52 And we would feel a little bit more in control. Yeah. And I feel that after talking to you. You do? Yeah. I want to thank you because I learned so much today. It was... The conversation was not exactly... 66:09 Interesting. 66:29 Mm-hmm. 66:47 And then to fulfill my own needs to feel good, I'm pressuring everybody else. And there's a very different way you can go about this. And you made us smarter about change, the reality of it. And you also, I think, opened up this window of true compassion and empathy. 67:06 Mm-hmm. 67:07 by helping us understand the dynamics. And I also appreciate the tactics. So thank you. I love your synopsis. 67:13 Thank you, Mel. This was great. Thank you for being you and thank you for having me here. 67:17 Oh my gosh. It's such a pleasure. And thank you. Thank you for making the time to listen to this. I hope you found it as fascinating and as helpful. I whole distinction between constantly trying to prove that you got it all done and that you're good versus just exhale? 67:41 What if you're just unlearning and learning and improving? And don't forget those two incredible questions. I love those. Did I do my best today? And what did I learn? You start asking that and I promise you, you're going to learn a lot about yourself and you're going to grow into the person that you are meant to be. 67:59 And in case no one else tells you, as your friend, I wanted to tell you that I love you and I believe in you. And I believe in your ability to create a better life. And the tools that Dr. Chu taught you today will help you create a better life and feel better in your life. I am certain of it. Alrighty. I'll see you in the next episode. I'll welcome you in the moment you hit play. It's question 10. 68:25 Yeah, let me get it. 68:27 Let me get to where we are. 68:30 Therese, any notes? I know, and it's written. 68:32 Okay. 68:34 I mean, it's so frustrating. You'll also learn how to stop weight. 68:39 Do you like that? Let me do the top one more time. The science that's going to help you finally break free from the endless frustrating cycle. Oh, Jesus. Are you okay? Did that hit your head? Wow. 68:52 Oh, well, that's... 68:54 Wow. Is it a magnet? Okay. 68:57 Here we go. 68:59 Okay. Oh, here we go. No, just, no, today. Here we go. Today. Just go down a little more. Yep. 69:05 Jesus. I literally have deleted this from my brain. Okay. Let me look at my notes here. Okay. 69:14 Oh, and one more thing. And no, this is not a blooper. This is the legal language. You know, what the lawyers write and what I need to read to you. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. I'm just your friend, I am not a licensed therapist, and this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it? Good. I'll see you in the next episode. 69:48 Sirius XM Podcasts.